8.07PM
KATE WILKINSON (National): I rise to speak on the purpose of the Employment Relations
(Flexible Working Arrangements) Amendment Bill, which, as we know, is to provide a statutory right for employees to request a variation of their working arrangements. But it also places a duty on the employers who receive those requests. Can I say at this stage, as a bit of an introduction, that I think it is appropriate to say that what we are debating tonight really is an important issue-that of flexibility in the workplace. If we were debating only the importance of flexibility in the workplace then there would be no disagreement. That is not what we are debating; we are actually debating legislating for that flexibility. We do not need to debate the advantages both to employee and employer of flexibility in the workplace; because we know there are advantages. We applaud that and we support that flexibility. We recognise the importance of flexibility not just for women or parents but in order to facilitate good, productive employment relations for the benefit of both employee and employer. But we do not applaud or support unnecessary, rigid legislation. We support education as to the benefits of flexibility, but not the legislation.
I refer to a previous Committee speech by the honourable member Mr Peter Brown. At that stage he admitted that all employees have the right now to ask for flexible working arrangements. That is what he said. He also said: "I do not think anyone is arguing that that it is not [true]." Obviously, that is right. But then when we asked why we even need this legislation his response was to refer to the purpose clause of the bill, which we are debating tonight, which includes an obligation on the employer to consider seriously a request for flexibility. Mr Brown said: *"The employee can already make a request, but under this bill the employer will have to consider it seriously.", as though under the current legislation the employer does not have to consider it seriously.
So what, exactly, does he think happens, or can happen, under the existing legislation? What does he think "good faith" means, if it does not include taking any reasonable request seriously?
[Interruption] I say to Mr Brown that is exactly what good faith means; it means taking any reasonable request seriously. In fact, the current legislation specifically provides for "good faith" applying in relation to a variation of working conditions; variations are provided for, good faith is provided for. Already the employer must act in good faith and consider such a request, so why do we even need this legislation? We say that it is not needed. We should have the debate, by all means. Debate is good; flexibility is good. We say use the debate to educate and promote the benefits of flexibility, but do not impose unnecessary legislation.
It was interesting, because Ms Fenton then said, in that prior reading: "There is a lot stopping people from asking for flexible working hours at the moment." Well, what exactly is stopping them asking, because it is certainly not in the law; it is already covered in existing legislation. But then what I liked was her example that in "understanding the realities of the working lives of many New Zealanders." That is what she said - "cleaners here in the House, here in Parliament, may want to clean the House during the day and not at night", and under the existing legislation they "would not have a prayer", but under this bill they would. Firstly, can I say they can make any reasonable request under the existing legislation. Secondly, all I can say is that I look forward to the interruption of a debate in the Chamber so the cleaners can clean, because they want to clean during the day.
We have heard, twice tonight, about the UK legislation, and that we should mimic the UK legislation, and that if it works over there, it will work here. I refer to the official advice we were given in the Transport and Industrial Relations Committee where we were cautioned on the use, and value, of such comparisons. I will quote the advice, because I want to get it exactly right: "There are questions as to the extent of the impact of the UK flexibility legislation because there are methodological inconsistencies in DTI-sponsored research on the impact. The DTI results are not necessarily supported by research from other organisations. There is no accurate pre-legislation baseline of information to measure from, and often the surveys do not distinguish between those eligible to request and those not eligible to request."
8.28PM
KATE WILKINSON (National): I rise to speak to clause 6A, which really is the substance of the Employment Relations (Flexible Working Arrangements) Amendment Bill. This is the clause that provides the employee with the statutory right to request a variation of working arrangements, and it also provides for the prescriptive statutory duty of the employer in relation to that request.
Before I continue, though, I would like to spend a little time on the Supplementary Order Paper 148* from the Minister Ruth Dyson, which omits the word "reasonably" from section *69AA(c). That might sound innocuous enough, but at the moment that clause provides that an employer may refuse a request "only if it cannot reasonably be accommodated on certain grounds." This Minister has said that an employer may refuse a request "only if it cannot be accommodated on certain grounds." There is a big difference between a request that cannot be accommodated and one that cannot be reasonably be accommodated. "Reasonably" brings in the notion of objectivity, which obviously that Minister is totally unaware of. By removing it, it virtually means that unless it is impossible for the employer to accommodate the request, the request must be granted. By removing the word "reasonably" it takes away the objectivity, and the Minister should be aware of that. I think it is a very dangerous precedent to set in relation to that Supplementary Order Paper.
This is the real substance of the bill, and I know that we had said that we support flexibility, but we are concerned that, firstly, the legislation is not necessary, and, secondly, we are concerned about the cost to the employer. In fact, the New Zealand Herald editorial back in November was entitled "Don't turn flexibility into a cost." It is an interesting article and I would like to quote some excerpts from it, because I think it is very useful and adds to this debate. The article reads: "Flexibility, with reference to working arrangements, is a word long favoured by employers ... Previously, flexibility was advanced for the good of firms, industries and the whole economy; all of which needed to be as competitive as possible once they were exposed to global markets. Now flexibility is being argued on principles of 'work-life balance', particularly for working couples trying to meet the demands of children and a career. There is no reason that both interests cannot be served by mutually convenient working arrangements but mutual is the crucial word."
This legislation is simply not necessary. The article continues: "But the more concrete proposals are those intended to help employees make requests for flexible terms, have their requests reasonably considered and arrangements adhered to. It suggests legislation could make more specific provisions for employees' rights to request flexible arrangements, the procedures employers must follow when they receive a request and the permissible grounds for a refusal.
If this begins to sound ominous for employers, it is." That is what the editorial says; I will repeat it: "If this begins to sound ominous for employers, it is." The article continues: "The principle needs restating that flexibility is best left to individuals and firms to find in their infinitely varying needs and circumstances. As soon as flexibility is codified, even as a negotiating procedure, it is in danger of becoming just another cost of employment and a discouragement to growth." Concerns have been expressed, and we will get practical here, that employers will have to prioritise the demands of parents and carers who qualify ahead of requests from other employees. Warnings have been given that this bill could also lead to personal grievances if employees feel that their demands for flexible working arrangements are not heeded.
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08:32